Licensing On Amazon: Another Avenue For Revenue with Paul Miller (Follow the Data Ep. 32)
As an Amazon Seller, the hunt for great ways to expand your business never stops. Not many sellers in the Amazon community have considered, let alone heard of, Amazon licensing as a possibility. In this episode, we break down what licensing looks like and the great opportunity it holds as an addition to an Amazon storefront. Paul Miller, a successful licensor on Amazon, walks through how licensing has changed his business and how it can do the same for yours. Licensing isn’t for everyone, but simply considering it as an option is well worth the time.
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Show Notes
- Many sellers are looking for ways to expand their Amazon storefront. Some consider expanding their product line, others consolidate their product line to focus on true revenue-drivers. Not many have considered licensing as a viable option for expansion.
- Paul Miller has experienced incredible growth due to licensing. Locking in a licensing deal with Nickelodeon has helped fuel this growth, as well as his drive to dig his heels even deeper into what licensing is able to provide.
- Licensing isn’t for everyone. There are a handful of factors to consider before jumping in.
- Amazon licensing is a great step for sellers that have driven into Private Label
- Paul talks about the Licensing Expo as a great first step to get into licensing. Check it out!
- Paul also offers a FREE course, walking you through licensing in greater detail. Head here to sign up.
- Shoot us a response, question, or comment on Facebook or anything we talked about on today’s episode!
- Give us a call, and you could be featured on the podcast. Our number is (317) 721-6590
Transcript:
CAMERON YODER:
The opportunity that Amazon’s FBA program provides is incredible, allowing so many people the financial freedom to live where they want, invest in their passions and spend more time with their families. But the opportunity does not stop with private label products. Licensing is its own incredible opportunity for Amazon sellers. I’m Cameron Yoder, your host for Follow the Data: Your Journey to Amazon FBA Success. In this show we leverage the data we’ve accumulated at Viral Launch from over 30,000 product launches and our experience working with more than 8,000 brands to help you understand the big picture when it comes to Amazon and, more importantly, the best practices for success as an Amazon seller. In this episode Casey and I sit down to talk to Amazon seller, Paul Miller, about licensing and how it’s changed, honestly changed, his Amazon business. Paul Miller has been expanding his e-commerce brand since 2015 and says the best piece of advice he’s ever received was to seek out licensing opportunities for his product. He locked in a licensing deal with Nickelodeon in 2017, which had skyrocketed his brand and culminated in a global mass-market distribution deal, which is crazy. Now Paul teaches others how to follow his path, growing their businesses to a size they’ve only dreamed of. And he’s here to talk to us about how to reach new heights through the power of licensing. Let’s jump in.
What’s up, everybody? We have Paul Miller with us. Paul, how are you doing today?
PAUL MILLER:
I’m outstanding. Thank you.
CAMERON YODER:
Outstanding. That is outstanding in itself. Before we get started, before we get started with who you are, where you’re from, what you’re doing, can you just, since we’re talking about licensing today, can you tell the listeners what licensing is, just in general?
PAUL MILLER:
Sure, I’ll be happy to. So licensing is when one party basically rents another party’s intellectual property to use on their product. For example, a great example might be a kids’ play tent. Let’s say you manufacture a kids’ play tent and you go to Disney and you license, or rent, the opportunity to put the Disney characters on your tent. That’s a perfect example of licensing.
CAMERON YODER:
Okay, got it, got it.
CASEY GAUSS:
And what are the basic mechanics behind that? Does Disney get the majority share of the sale, like just really basic mechanics so people can kind of understand?
PAUL MILLER:
It has to do with a licensing contract that you do negotiate with a licensor, or the, you know, intellectual property holder. In this case talking about the Disney Princess, for example, that would be – the Disney Princess would be the property. The property owner is Disney, and they’re going to negotiate a right with you to use that property. And in general that royalty rate is negotiable, but it’s probably in the area of 8% to 12% of sales.
CASEY GAUSS:
So Paul, can you give us the specifics surrounding licensing? Like what does the agreement look like? Just for sellers to understand, maybe even before they start getting into it if they want to, what an agreement looks like.
PAUL MILLER:
Sure. So I kind of call this the anatomy of a license, and I’m going to talk to you about a license from the licensee perspective. That’s the one, us as product owners, we’re licensing someone else’s character or intellectual property to put on to our product. So again, back in the case of the Disney play tent, we’ve got the play tent. We’re going to license these images or characters from Disney. Probably the first big consideration is what’s called the minimum guarantee, and that’s the minimum guarantee dollars that Disney would want from you over the lifetime of that contract, which may be three, four, five years that you have to deliver as basically a mandatory royalty. So there is the minimum guarantee.
CAMERON YODER:
If you don’t fulfill that guarantee what happens?
PAUL MILLER:
You’ll probably get the sheriff knocking on your door one day.
CAMERON YODER:
Okay.
PAUL MILLER:
No, it’s a – I mean it’s an obligation just like a long-term commercial lease is. So it’s an enforceable contract. Doesn’t matter if you, you know, fall on hard times and can’t produce the product. That’s a contract. You owe the minimum guarantee no matter what. I mean unless there’s a clause in the contract that says, you know, the factory burned down or something like that. But that’s an obligation that you need to take very seriously. So there’s the minimum guarantee, and that minimum guarantee is based on the royalty rate. So the royalty rate is typically a percentage of sales, and that percentage of sales, as I mentioned before, could be from 8% to 12%, could be 5%, depending on the sales channels that you’re selling in and how you’re selling it. So if you’re selling for wholesale, which is typically 50% of retail, that royalty percentage may be different than if you’re selling direct to consumer. So it’s 10% on wholesale 5% direct to consumer. Then there is even FOB terms, for example. If you’re selling your product FOB to some big retailer you may even have a different royalty percentage on that.
So there’s advance – sorry, there’s the minimum guarantee, there’s a royalty, and then there’s the advance. This just keeps getting more fun. So the advance is usually the amount of money that the licensor wants when you sign the contract, and that’s a portion of the minimum guarantee paid up front upon signing of the contract. Now that’s not in all contracts. In my case it was, and I had to pay a third of my minimum guarantee up front. Now you kind of earn that out in royalties later on. So it goes against your total royalties, but they do want that as a basically a show of good faith from you and know that you have skin in the game and you’re not going to just sit on that license and not make it because that’s basically an asset that they have that’s not working with some other product. It’s working with yours. So they want to make sure that you have skin in the game through that advance.
And then finally, I would say the other big kind of negotiable on this is the term of the agreement that is, you know, how long it’s going to be in effect for. In my case it was three years. And also, the different marketplaces that you have a right to sell in. They’re not all going to be the same. Some licensors, for example, may not want you selling in Amazon, and if that’s the case then that’s something you might want to reconsider. Or at the same time you may be required to present that product to retail distributors in your contract. So that’s another thing, sales channels that you definitely want to look at and make sure that those terms and conditions fit your business objectives.
CAMERON YODER:
So that is – I think that’s a pretty good base to establish even just a basic understanding of what licensing is before we get into more details around how it is involved with Amazon. But before we get to all those details, Paul, can you tell us just a bit about yourself? So basically tell us about you first, maybe where you are, where you’re at and how you started selling on Amazon.
PAUL MILLER:
Okay, great. I am in Virginia, if that’s what you meant by where I’m at, but started selling on Amazon about three years ago. I was actually a multi-store restaurant franchisee running a group of restaurants that were having hard times at the time.
CASEY GAUSS:
Paul, could you share what that restaurant was?
PAUL MILLER:
No, I’m not going to. You know what it is, Casey.
CASEY GAUSS:
I know what it is, and it was really delicious. I really loved that place.
PAUL MILLER:
I’m afraid I might be violating some sort of confidentiality agreement if I was to –
CASEY GAUSS:
Got it. That’s okay.
PAUL MILLER:
– say what it was.
CASEY GAUSS:
So all you need to know is it was a delicious restaurant that I was very sad when it went away.
PAUL MILLER:
Yeah, that’s right. So business got pretty tough for me. I went from three restaurants down to one, and I was looking for a plan B, and that’s when I came across Ryan Moran’s basically podcast, Smart Passive Income. Heard him on that podcast, and from there signed up for his email list. Eventually signed up for Amazing Selling Machine through his affiliate program. Joined the tribe, his tribe, and developed my products over the past basically three years, and along my way I was given some very good advice to seek out licensing opportunities as a way to kind of protect and expand my products, and through that developed a level of expertise by hiring lots of consultants, spending lots of money and working with licensors. So today I have a license with Nickelodeon representing about four of their properties, and it’s been an amazing, amazing part of my business.
CAMERON YODER:
Now so when you started, when you started even just thinking about Amazon the intent was to, I guess, drop your franchises, right, and maybe move into Amazon as something full-time. Is that right?
PAUL MILLER:
Yeah, that’s right. It really started as kind of a plan B as I was mentioning before. I was really on my last leg with the restaurant business, had a restaurant 2 ½ hours from my home. It had kind of been neglected over the years as I had opened others. So we decided to close the other ones and then focus very much on that one. And so I was really, you know, concerned that I wasn’t going to be able to make it in that store. So I was really looking for some plan Bs and came across Amazon. And you know, what was a plan B quickly turned into a plan A and probably the best, best plan A I could have imagined.
CAMERON YODER:
Now where – you mentioned that you kind of – you were given some great advice into moving into licensing. I feel like most sellers maybe actually even haven’t really considered licensing. Where were you at in your Amazon-specific journey when you even started, first started considering licensing as an option?
PAUL MILLER:
It was about a year into my Amazon business when I discovered a category on Amazon that was doing very well. I basically took one product that was for one specific market and kind of redid it for children in another market. And it was on fire, basically. I was having great success with it, but I was kind of terrified that somebody was going to try to rip me off or duplicate what I was doing. So I was seeking the advice of everybody I knew in the industry who could help me figure out how to grow and protect my brand, and I actually spoke to a guy called – or a guy named [Mark Hirsch 0:12:12.5], someone who I had known from a podcast, and Mark gave me the advice if I were you I’d look into licensing. And at that time I had no idea what he was talking about. It took me a while, took me some research to figure it out, and we just made great progress.
CAMERON YODER:
Can you tell us about how – can you tell us about your first licensing deal? Like did it just kind of fall into place? Did you have to work really hard for it? Like what was that first one like, and then maybe how did the pieces fall into place after that? Like was it really easy after you started establishing a licensing relationship, or do you still have to work really hard at it? Like what was that kind of first spark like?
PAUL MILLER:
Well, I’m glad you asked that because licensing is not easy when you get into kind of major licenses. But it can be easy if you start small. And that takes me back to my first license. Mark’s advice to me was to check out the licensing show in Las Vegas, and that was I think it was about this time of year then, about March, and the show was coming up in May. That’s basically the world’s biggest conferences for licensing. And I think if you look up Licensingexpo.com you can find out more about that show. But what I did is went on and registered for that show and built a profile about my company, and they kind of have a matchmaking service there. And I immediately matched up with an author of a kids’ book. That kids’ book was called The Whatif Monster, and she reached out to me and asked me if I would be interested in licensing her character. It was a perfect fit for our product. So I basically immediately replied to her. We got on the phone together. She was a children’s book author with probably 30,000 fans. And I had my product. That was a very easy deal to do. We put together a simple agreement, and that was a first licensed product. So as a point of entry going with kind of a smaller property, a smaller influencer is a really nice way to start.
CAMERON YODER:
Real quick, do you think that same process with kind of how you entered into licensing, do you think other people can do the same thing, or do you think that competition has kind of increased in this space where maybe it’s a little more difficult, or they have to find other avenues to enter into?
PAUL MILLER:
Well, I think it’s absolutely a great way to enter, and it does depend on your product whether or not something like, you know, a children’s book author or a character would work for your product. Licensing is dominated by children’s brands and entertainment brands, but it can also – you can also do licensing with an influencer, for example. So let’s say that you have a kitchen product and you have a high-level influencer in the cooking space. Well, that person may not be world-renowned, but also may have 100,000 folks on their YouTube channel. And if you basically license their brand or their name, put it on that product, they’re going to be incentivized to go out there and market your product for you.
CAMERON YODER:
Interesting. Now after your first licensing deal did everything just fall into place? Like did you continue to just do that same process over and over again, or did you find it to be more difficult?
PAUL MILLER:
The first licensing deal, as I mentioned, was kind of a smaller level deal. But it gave me a lot of experience, and it gave me some credibility in licensing. So when I was contacted later on by a major licensor, a major property owner, I could show this license that we already had as a case study. We didn’t end up doing a license with them, but just going through that negotiation process and understanding the different components helped me in my search for a better license. And that’s kind of how we got to the stage of speaking with Nickelodeon. It is a complex process, though, especially when you’re talking about, you know, working with a, you know, world-class company.
CASEY GAUSS:
So overall what would you say has been kind of the net effect or net benefit of licensing, in general? It sounds like a lot, but the more I guess you could quantify it the easier it will be, I think, or the more tangible it will be for like our listeners.
PAUL MILLER:
The reason I’m talking about licensing is because we, as Amazon sellers, are always looking for a way to protect our products, differentiate our products and then reach new audiences. So for me the net benefit is I have a unique product that has Nickelodeon characters on it, which even though I don’t have an exclusive, no one else can do that product without the license. So competition-wise it makes for very good differentiation. And again, it helps that audience who likes those products relate to my product. And also from an IP protection standpoint, while people may have been willing to knock off my product from a little-known brand, they’re going to be much more leery of trying to knock off a product, you know, held by Nickelodeon.
CASEY GAUSS:
For sure. And so can you kind of talk through what, you know, the launch process is on these products? Like I just, from my perspective, if you have Nickelodeon characters on, you know, whatever it is that you’re selling, it’s got to be so much easier to drive sales. It’s got to be so much easier to, you know, get these products off the ground and really start moving them. Would you say that’s the case?
PAUL MILLER:
Yes, I would say that’s the case. Now while I love Viral Launch, it wasn’t necessary for this Nickelodeon product. I actually was able to take, to launch the Nickelodeon product as variations of my well-selling products and just by having the visibility next to my, you know, Page 1-ranked products, they took off. I was on Page 1 within a couple of weeks.
CASEY GAUSS:
Geez.
CAMERON YODER:
Wow.
CASEY GAUSS:
Nice.
CAMERON YODER:
So during the Amazon seller journey would you say there is a point in time for a seller when he or she should most consider entering into something like licensing, or do you think anyone can start or enter into a licensing agreement at any point in time, like beginner to advanced? Should they wait until a specific time, or can they even start thinking about potentially licensing with their first product? What are your thoughts?
PAUL MILLER:
I think understanding licensing from the beginning is good to have in your pocket so that you know as you’re, you know, going through your Amazon journey that that’s one route that you can go. But a licensor is looking for someone who has sales. It’s going to be very unlikely that as a new seller, someone that doesn’t have sales on a product that you’ll be able to obtain a license because they are – they don’t want to tie up that property for someone who is already unproven. So I would say the time to consider licensing is after you really are doing well in the marketplace and you have something unique because the licensors are always looking for that unique product to team their property with.
CASEY GAUSS:
So is there like a specific sales mark that means that you’re doing well enough to talk to this brand or whoever, or is there like, you know, you have to be number one in your market?
PAUL MILLER:
I would say that no, you certainly don’t have to be number one in your market. And I think the level of sales that are required by the licensor depends on who you’re talking to. Again, the folks who maybe have smaller brands or smaller properties are going to be much more willing to work with you than some giant. I started working with Nickelodeon when we had about $2 million in sales.
CASEY GAUSS:
Gotcha. $2 million in sales annual, over the course of a year, or in total?
PAUL MILLER:
That was about a year’s worth of sales.
CASEY GAUSS:
Okay, but you’re saying you don’t necessarily have to be at that level. So if someone is doing $10,000 a month, let’s say, is that enough for them to now start talking with maybe some smaller brands, some maybe YouTube influencers like you had mentioned?
PAUL MILLER:
I would say absolutely, yes, and depending on who you’re working with on the licensor side, and you know, we spoke with Disney, Hasbro and Nickelodeon, the folks at Nickelodeon were much more entrepreneurial, and they could see the opportunity, and they were willing to embrace a unique product. And they could really get the vision of, you know, what it would look like to combine their property with our product. So it also depends on who you’re working with.
CAMERON YODER:
Has your experience as a whole with licensing, with licensees, been overall positive? Like you talked about the difference between Nickelodeon and Disney, but even with smaller licensees, maybe in even your beginning, the beginning of your journey, would you say that everyone has been somewhat easy to work with or people are kind of gung-ho about it, or it’s just generally a mixture of appeal?
PAUL MILLER:
Well, for me it’s been an amazing, amazing story. Even from – I still have a relationship with the author, Michelle, who we probably chat a couple times a week, and she really enjoys it when I send her a big fat royalty check. And I really enjoy it when she’s promoting my brand to her audience. So that has been amazing. On the Nickelodeon side it really has opened up new doors for me. Just to give you an example, very soon after our relationship, when our products were still in development, Nickelodeon invited me to an event out in Bentonville, Arkansas, you know, which you probably know is the home of Walmart. And you know, we got to participate in this Walmart presentation, which was absolutely amazing for me. How would I have been able to get to Walmart at that level without that license? The licensors have an incentive to help you do well. So a lot of times they’ll have teams who support Walmart, Target and big retailers, and their job is basically to try to get you into the door. That’s pretty amazing.
CASEY GAUSS:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
CAMERON YODER:
Now what – let’s say – I mean we have a lot of different sellers at different points in their journey, right? Different levels of selling on Amazon, so beginner to advanced level, right? What information would you say, would you want to tell them to consider to decide whether licensing is right for them? What information do people really need to know to consider licensing in general?
PAUL MILLER:
Well, you really need to understand the pros and cons before you jump in and spend a lot of time and energy because there is definitely a tremendous benefit to it, but there’s also a cost. So on the cost side you have your time and energy, which is very important, shouldn’t be undervalued, but you also have attorneys’ time. You have a completely different development cycle that you have to go through with approval of products. Many times you’re going to have to – you may or may not have to hire a licensing consultant to help you along with that. And you may even need some specialized design work. So you need to understand both the benefits, as we talked about, and the costs that come along with it.
CAMERON YODER:
And where they’re at, their resources, their time, opportunity costs, right?
PAUL MILLER:
Exactly.
CAMERON YODER:
Yeah.
CASEY GAUSS:
So is there – maybe in your experience you’ve run into this. Obviously you yourself have had a great experience. Is licensing for everyone, or are there, you know, particular, I don’t know, categories, types of products, types of sellers where this just doesn’t make sense?
PAUL MILLER:
One of the ways that I teach people to think about licensing is take a walk through the store in your category. Go to a big box store. If you’re in outdoor, for example, walk the outdoor aisle and see what licenses are there. And you’ll be surprised to see how many products in your category already have licenses on them. So that’s one way to find out. But there are some categories, certainly, that would be much more difficult to add a license to. As I mentioned before, the, you know, children’s, entertainment is very big. I think kitchen is also very big. One of the pieces that I talk about in my course is the George Foreman grill, for example. You know, kind of a really great example of a licensed product. We all know that George doesn’t really make grills, but he does endorse them and put his name on them, and that’s, you know, that’s a famous, big licensing deal.
CASEY GAUSS:
Yeah, yeah.
CAMERON YODER:
Under what circumstances would you discourage someone from entering into licensing?
PAUL MILLER:
I would say that if you’re just getting started or if you’re really thin on resources it’s not really a good time to get started in licensing because, as I mentioned, it does take some other costs. You really should have an attorney review your agreement. One of the components of a license is a minimum guarantee, and that minimum guarantee is enforceable whether you sell zero products or a million products.
CAMERON YODER:
If listeners are listening and are feeling overwhelmed, because that is a lot, like licensing is an incredible opportunity, that’s a lot of – those are a lot of factors to consider for getting into licensing.
CASEY GAUSS:
Not to mention capital needed.
CAMERON YODER:
Of course, right, capital needed and everything else that goes with it.
PAUL MILLER:
Exactly.
CAMERON YODER:
If someone is feeling overwhelmed and just heard all of those things to take into consideration and just instantly says that’s too much; I can’t do it, what would you tell them if someone’s feeling overwhelmed?
PAUL MILLER:
I’d just say send a text message to Casey. No, no, you know, it’s like anything else. I didn’t know anything about licensing when I started, zero. I showed up at the first Licensing Expo with not a clue. In fact, I’m quite sure that some of the licensors that I talked to probably shook their head as I walked away going that guy doesn’t have a clue. So I would say, you know, enter the world, jump in the water and start learning. And you can learn by going to the Licensing Expo. You can take my free course, which I’ll be happy to give you the URL to, start digging around, do some Google research. It’s not that hard. It gets more complicated as you go up the ladder of licensing with the big properties. But again, starting out simple may be a great way to start.
CAMERON YODER:
Got it. Paul, is there anything else that you would like to tell our listeners?
PAUL MILLER:
I would just go back and say that, once again, don’t be intimidated by it. Look at the opportunity, understand the opportunity, and try to make a decision of whether or not that’s a good direction for your business to go in and see if it fits. Understand the pros and cons before you take the commitment.
CASEY GAUSS:
Yeah, and off of that – I think Paul has mentioned this – you know, one thing that I don’t want to happen is that there’s always that get rich quick scheme just over the hill, right? And so this is that, but isn’t that, and so in such that there is plenty of opportunity in licensing, but it may not be for everybody, or it is at the least not for everybody in their current state. So please don’t see this as a hey, I’m going to get rich quick opportunity, but at the same time it may be just that. So I think that it’s worth at least considering looking into and learning a lot more about. But don’t, you know, if there’s – you have terrible photos, you know, you have a bad listing, you’re not ranking for you know any keywords, this is not going to be your saving grace.
PAUL MILLER:
I’m going to back you up on that 100%, Casey. This is an advanced move, I would say, and not for the beginner and not for someone who is working on a shoestring. It’s more of a strategic business move than anything else.
CASEY GAUSS:
Yeah, and you know, Paul had done like $2 million in a year on his product before he went through this. So yeah. Paul, thanks so much.
CAMERON YODER:
Yeah, thank you so much, Paul.
CASEY GAUSS:
And so you know, I want our listeners to know – I had forgotten that you had a course. For those that may be interested in checking it out, you know, we’re obviously not getting any commissions nor would I want any commissions, but I do think it is a cool opportunity, so if people wanted to like learn more about the course, where would they do that?
PAUL MILLER:
Well, thanks. Well, we don’t have to worry about commissions because I don’t have anything for sale yet.
CASEY GAUSS:
Okay.
PAUL MILLER:
But I have been asked by so many folks in our sector, and you and I talked the other day about friends of ours who went with me to the licensing show last year and came out and actually executed licenses right out of the show. And that was Liran Hirschkorn and Andy Slamans. And you know, they really encouraged me to put a course together, so I did put together basically an intro to licensing completely free. You will get on my emailing list, so when I do have something to sell I will hit you up. But it’s at nextlevellicensing.com/followthedata.
CASEY GAUSS:
Oh, nice. He was prepared.
PAUL MILLER:
How do you like that? So we made a special landing page for you guys.
CASEY GAUSS:
Nice.
CAMERON YODER:
Awesome.
PAUL MILLER:
And just check it out. It really is, I believe, licensing is the next level of private label, and that’s why we called it that. I also have, you know, once you finish the course we have a private Facebook group where we’re putting together licensing people with product people, just trying to make people aware of the opportunity. When you do sign up I’ll probably put some emails out about the licensing show, so looking forward to meeting a bunch of folks out there. That’s coming up in about the middle of May. And look forward to seeing people out there.
CAMERON YODER:
That sounds great. We’ll put the link to that, to the course, in our show page, but hey, thanks, Paul, for being here, for answering questions, just for being available.
PAUL MILLER:
I appreciate it, guys. Thanks a lot.
CASEY GAUSS:
All right. Thanks, Paul. Take care.
CAMERON YODER:
Thanks, Paul.
What’s up, everybody? I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Paul. I was actually pretty interested to dive into the conversation of licensing since I haven’t heard many other sellers even talking about it. For any questions that you have for Paul or for us around licensing, we would love to hear from you feedback around licensing or feedback from the show. To submit any questions or responses that you have, feel free to hit us up on Facebook to shoot us a direct message and/or you can also leave us a voicemail. Our number is 317-721-6590. We’ll answer a couple of the questions, or maybe even on the next show in next week’s episode or the week after. Your feedback is super important to us, too, and if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts please feel free to leave us a review and/or rating. We love to hear from you guys. All you’ve got to do is head to our show page, scroll down to where it says ratings and reviews and tap the star rating you think that the show deserves. Then if you’ve got a minute leave us a review and tell us what you think of the show. And if you know a fellow seller who might be interested in licensing send them this episode and tell them about the show. We want to be a resource for those people, for you, for sellers and the information source in this space specifically, so please tell your friends, spread the word and share the show. Thanks again for listening. Really, we appreciate all of you and appreciate your time. Until next time, remember, the data is out there.
